RSS 2.0Bad Pickup Advice: Part I
Posted in General on 10/02/2009 01:33 am by DJ Fuji
One of my big pet peeves in this industry is the spread of misinformation and just plain bad advice by “gurus” who couldn’t teach their way out of a paper bag. Not only are these so-called teachers ruining their own credibility, but they are damaging the progress and belief systems of their students, whom most of the time don’t know any better.
I had one student recently with really bad inner game who told me that he worked with a coach who told him never to open direct because of his disqualifiers (short, out of shape, heavy Indian accent, bad fashion, etc). The coach’s advice: Go indirect and fly under the radar.
This is a great example of technically correct advice being given to the wrong student at the wrong time and for the wrong reason. Before you read on, test yourself. I want you to ask yourself what’s wrong with the aforementioned advice. It’s technically correct. But what’s wrong with it?
Ready for the answer?
Telling that guy to only go indirect is poisoning his inner game and belief system (sacrificing long term development) in order to attain a short term result (more sets hooking).
Technically, it’s correct when we compare it to the basic disqualification rule. I don’t know if I made this rule up, but it makes sense and it coincides with my field experience:
The more outwardly disqualified you are, the more indirect you should go. Conversely, the more QUALIFIED you are, the more direct you should go.
Clearly, the coach must be correct then, right? It follows the DQ rule to the T.
Negative.
The problem here is that every rule has exceptions and context. The difference between a good coach and a bad one is that a good one will know these exceptions and contexts and will know when to implement them. That rule is a general guideline for maximum short term results (maximizing sets hooking). Unfortunately, it doesn’t take into account the implications of inner game and belief systems, which our aforementioned student struggled heavily with.
Keeping in mind that your actions have an enormous effect on your beliefs, we therefore do NOT want to do things which poison our thoughts and beliefs, ESPECIALLY when that’s a weak area to begin with.
The problem with the original advice is that by saying, “don’t ever go direct,” you tell yourself that you aren’t attractive enough as a man to ever be lucky enough for a woman to like you unless you trick her into it by going under the radar. You’re telling yourself that you need an excuse to walk up to girls because they won’t like you if you just walk up and say hi. You tell yourself that you’re not the type of man who goes after what he wants.
I don’t care if those statements are true (at one point) or not, that’s one of the worst inner game dialogue sessions you can have with yourself. And if it IS true right now, then CHANGE. Get out there and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. But don’t poison your belief system in the process.
Here’s what your inner dialogue should sound more like:
“I am—and am working towards being—a fun, charismatic, attractive guy who brings value to people’s lives. I don’t need a pretext to talk to anyone. I am a man who goes after what he wants, regardless of the obstacles in my way. I do not apologize for my existence or for my desires as a man.”
Note that this type of belief system allows you to grow and focuses on LONG TERM DEVELOPMENT. It does not poison your inner game in order to hook a few more sets tonight.
Do not be penny-wise and pound-foolish. Don’t sacrifice long term development for short term gains.
10/02/2009 at 07:16
To add to this, the more disqualified you are, the more aggressive you can be. I’m a tall and thin white guy, so if I want to hit on a black girl (which I don’t usually do because I don’t like them), I can be super sexual and aggressive because I’m non-threatening by default so I really need to make myself a sexual threat in order to gain attraction.
A lot of the short and skinny asian guys who get good do it by being super aggressive and dominant. Not sure if you do this stuff but someone like Saffron is a really good example of this.
10/03/2009 at 16:35
I agree with this totally.
I think something that would really help students is some guidance when one realizes they’re being taught by someone who’s either incompetent or uncaring.
It’s Night #2 of your 3 day bootcamp and your instructor is ignoring you or just being a dick. What should a student do in this circumstance?
That would be a good article, i think.
–Dan
10/03/2009 at 22:30
@Dan:
Thanks for the feedback, thats a great idea. I’ll include that in a future blog entry.
10/05/2009 at 16:12
I’ve just come to this realization as well.
I’m a black guy and I’ve been practicing indirect game (Brad P) for a while and it always felt awkward. It wasn’t until I switched to direct game that I realized how nervous I was on approaching average (not even hot) girls. For some reason I felt like I was less confident than I was before. It was like I was getting worse. I’ve had black friends who always go direct and it’s whatever I’ve grown up knowing. There walk with a confidence (swagger) and find it completely normally to just walk up to a girl and start talking to her. This style fits me better. It’s me!
10/06/2009 at 06:41
Hmm, the problem with this industry is it’s totally unregulated and how do most guys go about learning to coach, they probably just attempt to pick it up as they go.
So sometimes you may be lucky and other times you may not, even in the same company there could be quite different coaching standards.
Interesting.
How did you learn how to teach Fuji?
Jack
10/07/2009 at 00:04
@Jack:
Because this is a very new industry, I don’t really have a problem with guys who learn to teach by picking it up as they go. Sure you should have a baseline set of fundamentals, but OJT is normal.
What I *do* have a problem with are bad coaches who don’t give a shit about students and whom don’t have any desire to become better.
I learned to coach courtesy of the United States Marine Corps. But even with that training, I had to work my ass off learning how to be a better coach. I practiced and read books on public speaking, watched countless hours of other great orators, read books on counseling and therapy, and learned by watching other great coaches. Sure the Marines gave me a great start, but it was very important to me to be an amazing coach. I wasn’t content to just sit back and collect a paycheck in mediocrity. Within a few months of coaching with Mehow, I had already surpassed him. I remember the day he told me that I was a better coach than he was. It was a great compliment.
But I wanted more. I wanted to be better still. I started working more on public speaking and on working with different personality types. I worked with psychologists and psychiatrists to learn more about how you implement change in people’s lives. I watched Tony Robbins speak a LOT. I ran lots and lots of workshops, soliciting criticism from students in order to keep improving.
In short, I did the same thing that I did with pickup. I worked on myself and I made it a point to keep getting better. And don’t think for a second that I’m finished. I’m still working on myself and I’m still getting better.
10/12/2009 at 21:13
I saw your speech and in the car you came across as a likable, laid back guy with no ego.
I think you will go far if this is the field you chose and all the practice you listed above came through in your speech. It was one of the best, if not the best at the 2009 Convention.
It shows in the way you communicated.
10/22/2009 at 11:10
Cheers to that brother. Well put.
11/03/2009 at 07:23
@Hammer:
Forgot to post about this earlier. The More Disqualified -> More Aggressive thing only works sometimes. It’s more of a “sometimes you can do this” than a rule. Say, for example, that you’re a 60 year old guy in a college club. You can’t go super aggressive with a girl. Too much social pressure for her. Not to mention the ick factor.
The reason that it works with black girls is because black girls like everyone. With skinny, docile-looking white or asian guys, it works because you are being negatively stereotype for not being aggressive ENOUGH. It DOESN’T work on other disqualifiers. A ghetto black guy in an asian club, for example, is super disqualified, but doesn’t win any points by being MORE aggressive.
11/26/2009 at 09:22
Nice Post Fuji. I should take my own advice but man you gotta post more. You’re the best teacher with a technical game approach more people should know about you man.
As Fuji is saying here…You may have all the tools but if you don’t use them to your advantage, you wont get anywhere! Therefore, you really need to have yourself examine – your skills and advantages. Sometimes, it is really hard to check what your good traits are. It is easier to point out the negativity in yourself than focus on the positive. That is why it is better that you have someone look at your, analyze who you are and what you do. With the perfect analysis, you can have the power to do anything you’d like to do – in terms of hooking up that is ☺
http://www.theredmole.com/
http://www.youtube.com/user/theREDmolecom
11/30/2009 at 05:00
This is one of the better posts I’ve read in a while. I really like how you talk about the exception rule. As a overweight asian guy with balding hair I can tell from my experience that going direct has done a lot for my confidence. Also I noticed for a asian guy, it can be better if a asian guy just goes direct versus indirect. A lot of white girls just assume your not sexual and aggressive from the stereotype so it works in your advantage to very sexual. my two cents.
love your posts fuji
02/15/2010 at 17:22
WHERE the hell can I find a really good mentor around my area, NYC area???!?!? I am sooo stuck, Im not a bad looking guy, sociable, confident, but something is not working for me because I havent been able to pull more then ten girls, that I want, aka decide wow she is soo cute (and yes I open them most of the time). NEED help thanks for your time guys. Btw the way not wingmen, an actual mentor, I can’t afford a bootcamp lmao.
02/15/2010 at 17:27
You want a free mentor? Sorry man, nothing is free. You can get a free wingman who can give you tips. Or you can trade services with a coach. But you’re not going to get professional-level training for nothing. You might as well go onto car forums and ask someone to repair your engine for free. If you want it bad enough, find a service you can trade for training or make some extra cash with whatever skills you have and take training.
02/15/2010 at 20:36
Well I think most professionals worth hiring have gone over the top with their prices, but that’s just my opinion. I have been lucky enough to find a mentor in my profession, multi-million dollar company owner who has taken me under his wing, yet he could charge for letting someone one see how he makes his money. Well regardless thank you for your advice though, I really appreciate it, and your right maybe I just got lucky finding one person in this world like my boss. Do you have any suggestions on maybe finding a solution to my problems mysself? Again thank you for your time as I understand that you could charge me for even your simplest advice, lol.
02/16/2010 at 09:12
Long time reader, first time poster. For anyone who hasn’t seen DJ Fuji’s Under 21 speech, go watch it NOW.
I like the way that you call out (without being a complete dickhead like sinn) the ways at which community teachers are flawed OR can be better teachers.
So you’ve told us how NOT to do it, but how about HOW to do it.
Can you give me some insight on how to become a professional pick up trainer? I already do it for free, but I am unsure as to how to attract potential clientele to pay for my services? I don’t want to start a company, i just want to train 1 or 2 guys intensively for a *very* affordable price in the Boston area.
I can be reached at dp8el@aol.com
02/16/2010 at 16:43
Fade,
Being a trainer means putting in years of work not only to refine your own game, but to have such a strong grasp of it that you can impart that knowledge on others. Now can just anyone create a website and start teaching? Sure. There’s no certification process to this so anyone can claim to be an expert and start teaching. But that doesn’t mean he’ll be a GOOD teacher. Just like learning as a student, there is no easy fix to learning to be a teacher. It takes experience, guidance, coaching, and discipline. It’s really just the same process, only on other side of the fence.
What I would recommend to all guys who want to start coaching is this: First get good at game. Be able to consistently get laid from cold approach. Clean up your big mistakes and sticking points. You can’t be coaching guys to not lean in and then you go into a set and lean into them. Then intern for an established coach or someone who can teach you how to teach. Someone you respect AS A TEACHER. Eventually you’ll graduate to full-blown instructor where you can continue to teach under his tutelage or go off on your own.
Hope this helps,
-dj fuji
02/17/2010 at 06:00
@Aly Al:
It does seem expensive to hire professionals in this industry. But just for fun, let’s compare hourly rates and see how expensive it *really* is.
Rates Per Hour for varying professionals (independent consultants) at the top of their industry:
- Plumber: $140-250+ (according to google searches)
- Computer Programmer: $100-250+ (rates when I was Programming)
- Life Coach: $200+
- Lawyer: $300+
- Exotic Dancer: $300+
Pickup Coach: $87.5 (equivalent hourly rate based on a full day of 1:1 training)
As you can see, I was making a hell of a lot more in computers and I wasn’t even that good of a programmer. Full time coaching for me is a PASSION, not an economically-based decision.
As far as finding a free mentor, even monetarily free mentoring comes at a price. Maybe your mentor values hard workers and wants to pass on his knowledge to the next generation. Maybe like Style, you have some other value to him (e.g., Style had access to Hollywood celebrities thru his work). Maybe he’s your dad’s friend and owes your dad a favor. Whatever the case is, nothing is free in this world. It might not always cost you actual cash, but it will cost SOMETHING at SOME time to SOMEone.
Now if you have more time than money (which is a lot of people), that doesn’t mean you can’t get monetarily free training. You’ll just have to substitute your time instead. Say you recruit 4 or 5 guys who want to take a boot camp and you get them to sign up. In most locations, I’ll not only fly out to your city on my expense, but i’ll run the boot camp and let YOU attend the boot camp for “free.” Or more accurately, we will trade services — your labor in recruiting students and my labor in coaching you.
That’s why I always say that guys who don’t take training are either stubborn, let their ego get in the way of their success, or lazy. Or some combination thereof. Anyone can “afford” training, no matter how broke. You just have to be creative. I trained with most of the best in the world and often times ended up trading services to make it happen. You can as well, you just have to go after it.